Lawrence Phipps III - Highlands Ranch Historical Society oral history interview

              BEGIN INTERVIEW

LAKE: O.k., all right. I’m John LAKE, and this is my wife, Meg ANDERSON, and we’ll be interviewing you today, and what we need is a rundown on your name, date of birth, where you were born, how and why you came to Highlands Ranch. What you’ve done in your life and principal activities and interests so just kind of -- First of all, name, date of birth, all of that basic stuff.

PHIPPS: O.k. I’m Lawrence PHIPPS, III, and I was born October 28, 1933 at St. Luke’s Hospital in Denver, and then in 1937, when I was four, my father purchased Highlands Ranch, and I got to see it for the first time, and I remember my first view through there.

LAKE: Oh, really!

PHIPPS: And what most impressed me was the “white room” as we called it with --.

LAKE: Right, yes.

PHIPPS: Which, which is now everybody calls the solarium. 

LAKE: Yes! 

PHIPPS: And I can remember that as four year kid. 

LAKE: Oh, boy. 

PHIPPS: And so that’s who I am. 

ANDERSON: That’s an impressive room. 

LAKE: [chuckles] And what has been your occupation? What occupations have you had?

PHIPPS: After I got out of college, I was in the Army, Army Intelligence for three years, and then I came to Denver and got a job with the Denver Equipment Company in sales, and I sold mining equipment and then after a year, I, I decided to go into business by myself and ended up doing some real estate deals. I went to a friend who was in real estate, very successful in Denver, told him I wanted to get my feet wet in real estate. He says, “Lawrence, don’t drown.” [laughter]. 

ANDERSON: I love it. 

PHIPPS: And, and I damn near did. [laughter] So that’s my, my story. I helped my father buy this ranch here in Elbert County after the flood of 1965 when the Army Corps of Engineers slated a couple thousand acres of my father’s ranch for condemnation, and in condemnation, it’s not a willing sale, you know that, so, so if you reinvest in real estate, that’s sale process is not taxable.

LAKE: Uh, huh. 

PHIPPS: And so my father bought this ranch in an expectation of getting real proceeds check, and he did finally, ten years later. And, and the tax people had to make a special exception, but it turns out large condemnations like this by, by the government customarily take ten years.

LAKE: I didn’t know that.

PHIPPS: And we didn’t either. My lawyers didn’t know this.

LAKE: Oh.

PHIPPS: And so after he died, Gerald PHIPPS and I were named as executors of his estate and I administered Highlands Ranch and, and this ranch. And after a while decided with some partners to buy this ranch, and because there was a conflict of interest between me as a buyer and me being the executor --

LAKE: Right.

PHIPPS: -- It had to be pretty open sale, and so the Judge had us expose this on the open market for one year at the price I had offered. Nobody came up to that number, and I got it. 

LAKE: So it was, that’s this ranch, the quarter bell, quarter circle bell ranch?

PHIPPS: Right.

LAKE: Yeah, o.k. Get it.

PHIPPS: And, and by that time, I’d severed my relationship with Mission Viejo, and they decided to do the cattle operation on their own. And --

ANDERSON: Now what was the relation to Gerald PHIPPS? [wind makes her speech unclear]

PHIPPS: He was a contractor, and when I started dealing with him in business, I had always heard people would say great things about him business wise, and he was that way. He was, you know, in a spectacular fashion, honest and worthright in his dealings. And I think that was the secret to his being a general contractor.

ANDERSON: Uh, huh. 

PHIPPS: -- He gave the impression which he carried out of, this is the contractor you wanted whatever the price. 

ANDERSON: Yes.

LAKE: Right.

ANDERSON: It’s a compliment to him. 

PHIPPS: Yeah, well, that’s how he was to deal with.

ANDERSON: Uh, huh. 

PHIPPS: And we, we had many discussions but no major arguments.

LAKE: Uh, huh. Great.

PHIPPS: And, and we administered the estate for some eight years before we were discharged, and the estate was settled. 

LAKE: Wow, you did have the Highlands Ranch and then, but that had some property up on County Line, too? 

PHIPPS: There was one section of land in Arapahoe County --

LAKE: Uh, huh.

PHIPPS: -- Which was mid-way between University and Colorado Blvd., and of course, it was quite valuable from a development standpoint. And my father was running short of cash, oh, six months before he died and needed money very badly --

LAKE: Uh, huh.

PHIPPS: -- And so I made a deal where I talked him into making a deal to sell 80 acres to a developer, Trammell-Crow, with options on more 80’s and so that was the land. That was already under contract essentially.

LAKE: Uh, huh. 

PHIPPS: -- By the time he died, and by that time, because of those sales, he didn’t have a cash crunch. 

LAKE: Yeah. 

ANDERSON: Great.

LAKE: Good for you.

PHIPPS: Well, it turns --

LAKE: Made it easier.

PHIPPS: -- Trammell-Crow and his partners were real good business people.

LAKE: They are, yeah. Yep. Well, you have quite a family tree --

PHIPPS: Yes!

LAKE: -- Going back to the Senator, Lawrence Senior. How does all that, a good story of that? 

PHIPPS: Well, he had, the Senator had three sons and three daughters. I didn’t know the daughters very well, and I knew the sons, my father and Allan PHIPPS was the lawyer, and Gerald PHIPPS was the contractor, and that just, you know, as a kid, they were older and I had social dealings with them.

LAKE: Yeah. 

PHIPPS: I never had a clue of what Gerald was like to deal with in business. So it’s, that’s the family. 

ANDERSON: Now you didn’t know the sisters? The daughters?

PHIPPS: Well, I knew them, but my, my father had a full sister who married a lawyer in Philadelphia, and she was a, a devout -- There’s a cult in Philadelphia, a religious cult. I can’t think of it off hand. 

LAKE: Uh, huh. What was her name?

PHIPPS: But it -- I don’t remember. [LAKE laughs]. 

LAKE: That’s allowed. I understand that very well. Yeah --

PHIPPS: And then the other two daughters were married to real estate people in Denver. Oh, one was named, had the last name of Garrett (?) and the other one had the last name of Bromfield (?). And I saw them socially, but really didn’t have, I had more interactions with their children and grandchildren than I did with them. 

LAKE: And then your father? He had what, how many wives? Two?

PHIPPS: Had three! 

LAKE: Three. 

PHIPPS: He had three wives, and three daughters by the first wife, and three children by the second wife. Me, my, my sister, Richmond (?) and my brother, Henry, and then no children by his third wife, Lainey.

LAKE: What were the wives’ names? Do you remember any of those? Well, your mother’s name? It’s certainly close by.

PHIPPS: My mother did not enjoy her first name. By the time we were named before, it was very dangerous to ever even think of her name.

LAKE: Right. 

PHIPPS: And she’s been dead now more than 50 years, and I’m still terrified and refuse to say what her name was. [laughter].

LAKE: What did you call her? 

PHIPPS: Mom! 

LAKE: Oh, I see that. [laughter]

PHIPPS: And the third wife was named Lainey.

LAKE: Oh! How do you spell that?

PHIPPS: Well, it was Elaine was her full name, but everybody called her Lainey, L-A-I-N-E-Y. 

LAKE: Oh, I know. Oh, and then you had a, a wife or two?

PHIPPS: Yeah, I had, I’ve had two wives so far.

LAKE: Yes.

PHIPPS: And Suzanne was the first, and with that marriage was -- She divorced me after three years. That marriage -- And then the second wife was named Marie.

LAKE: And that’s 20 years. We happen to know that. 

PHIPPS: Yes. 

LAKE: And then you had, you had how many sons?

PHIPPS: Just one.

LAKE: Yes. Lorenzo?

PHIPPS: Yes.

LAKE: And then daughters?

PHIPPS: None. 

LAKE: Just kind of outside my area of expertise. Our next subject is Frank Kistler.

PHIPPS: O.k.

LAKE: Did you remember him at all? 

PHIPPS: No, I don’t know if I ever met him.

LAKE: Yeah. ‘Cause you were four? 

PHIPPS: I was four when my father bought the place, and by that time, the place was already in the bank’s hands.

LAKE: Ahh -- So your Dad went and negotiated with the bank?

PHIPPS: I, I don’t know who he negotiated with?

LAKE: Yes, I know..

PHIPPS: At any rate, he took over Kistler’s loan at the bank.

LAKE: Yes.

PHIPPS: And that’s the loan he was never able to pay off.

LAKE: Uh, huh. 

ANDERSON: I’ll be darned.

PHIPPS: And finally after his death, Gerald and I paid it off. 

LAKE: Uh, huh. 

PHIPPS: And that was the Frank Kistler loan.

LAKE: I’ll be darned. O.k. Whatever happened to Frank Kistler?

PHIPPS: Well, part of the deal was that he got something, and so what he got was a highly mortgaged Colorado hotel in Glenwood Springs with the hot spa.

ANDERSON: Oh! 

PHIPPS: -- With the hot springs. 

LAKE: Yes! 

PHIPPS: And he moved there and managed that. 

ANDERSON: Oh, my gosh. I did not know that. Uh, huh.

LAKE: Oh, there’s a question here about the PHIPPS mansion in Denver.

PHIPPS: Well, that’s my grandfather’s house. 

LAKE: Oh --

PHIPPS: And that was built in 1934.

LAKE: That was the Senator’s --

PHIPPS: -- The year after I was born. 

LAKE: Uh, huh. 

PHIPPS: And that’s the Belcaro Mansion.

LAKE: Yes.

ANDERSON: Right. 

LAKE: Right. We, we’ve enjoyed that many times at parties.

PHIPPS: Yeah, I’ve been there for parties. It’s wonderful for parties. 

LAKE: It is! Yeah. Even the tennis pavilion. We’ve had parties there!

PHIPPS: Yeah, yeah, me, too. [laughter] I’ve had relatives get married there. 

LAKE: Yes. O.k.

ANDERSON: A great spot.

PHIPPS: Yeah --

LAKE: And then, but that sold? DU [University of Denver] had it for a while? 

PHIPPS: Right. 

LAKE: And then they sold it --

ANDERSON: [unclear] 

PHIPPS: And DU used it as a conference center.

LAKE: Yes. 

PHIPPS: But the cost of its upkeep far exceeded its value as a conference center. 

LAKE: Uh, huh.

PHIPPS: And as its costs rose with inflation and, and deteriorating 1930’s plumbing and heating, and no air conditioning and --

LAKE: Yes. So when did you actually move to the Highlands Ranch Mansion? 

ANDERSON: Which time? 

LAKE: The first time.

PHIPPS: 1937.

LAKE: 1937. 

PHIPPS: Yeah, two weeks after us kids toured it with our parents. 

LAKE: Oh? 

ANDERSON: My gosh -- Huh.

PHIPPS: At that time, you know, it was under contract to my father --

LAKE: Yes.

PHIPPS: -- Who hadn’t closed. 

LAKE: But wanted --

PHIPPS: As soon as it closed, we, we’d been living in a house on Race Street, and, and that got sold, and we moved to the ranch. 

ANDERSON: Now which room were you in? Do you remember? Which was your bedroom? 

PHIPPS: Yeah, initially it was the second one up. As time went on, I, I ended up in every bedroom except the one at the end [Laughter] with the fancy bathroom.

LAKE: Yes, yes.

ANDERSON: Right. 

LAKE: Yes. 

PHIPPS: And, but I’ve slept in every other bedroom. 

ANDERSON: They’ve just opened up a bedroom off the servant’s, that was in the servants’ quarters, I guess. And Highlands Ranch has just opened that up for tours and things like that.

PHIPPS: Uh, huh. 

LAKE: They’ve got it furnished in older furniture and things, and we, we saw it the other day, but we don’t know much about it yet so --

PHIPPS: Yeah, where the servants’ quarters were, that was the original house. 

LAKE: Yes. The Rutherwood house. Then you lived there for a few years before you moved to Wyoming? 

PHIPPS: Yeah, we lived there for, I lived there for three years until 1940, and that’s when my Mother and Father got divorced, and under Colorado divorce laws then, it had to be a two year separation before a divorce was granted.

ANDERSON: Oh! 

PHIPPS: And so my Mother went originally to Arizona and then to California, then to Wyoming, and then the divorce became final.

LAKE: Uh, huh. 

ANDERSON: O.k.

LAKE: Then you lived in Wyoming for --

PHIPPS: Yeah.

LAKE: -- For several years? 

PHIPPS: Oh, yeah. That’s where I went to school. We started out living on Prairie Dog creek in, east of Sheridan. Then my mother and step-father traded that place for one south of Buffalo. And so that’s where I went to, well, grades 7 and 8 and then on to high school. 

LAKE: Sheridan has quite a history, doesn’t it? That town? 

PHIPPS: Yeah. Peakwon (?) has the big history. See it was the capital of Wyoming at one time.

ANDERSON: Really?

PHIPPS: And it’s never had a population of more than 250 people. I think that’s its current population, and that was its population in 1890. And it, but that’s where the big landowners were.

LAKE: Oh -- 

PHIPPS: And that’s where they still are. It was, when I was growing up, you know, Buffalo, Wyoming. It was a very sophisticated place. In, in the winter time, there’d be a couple parties every week, and every party you had to wear a tuxedo to. 

ANDERSON: Wow! 

PHIPPS: And, and you’d hear three or four languages being spoken. These were small parties of 30 people, and there were some large parties of up to 100 people, but when you got an informal invitation, you hauled out your tuxedo. 

ANDERSON: Amazing in Wyoming! 

LAKE: Well, it had quite a, apparently settled by a lot of English people.

PHIPPS: Well, the English and Italian people.

LAKE: Ah --

PHIPPS: There were a salesman in Wyoming in those days, in the 1890’s and 80’s named Merton Ferron, and Merton Ferron shared the attentions of his mistress with King Edward, VIII. 

ANDERSON: Oh, oh, my gosh.

PHIPPS: And they shared the same mistress who was Lilly Langtree.

LAKE: Oh, yes! 

PHIPPS: The most beautiful woman in the world. [laughter]

ANDERSON: I didn’t know that.

PHIPPS: And he sold all these ranches to these investors, and they’d send their second and third sons there.

LAKE: Yes!

PHIPPS: And because of English primogeniture rules, and he also sold a lot of mining properties in Australia. And these people all lost their cattle in the blizzard of 1888 --

LAKE: Uh --

PHIPPS: And in the same year, his mining company in Australia went into receivership. It’s name was “Broken Hill Proprietary,” which is the modern BHP --

ANDERSON: Yes!

PHIPPS: And, and a Big Horn in turn also rose from the ashes, but Merton Ferron thereafter in London was always called Norton Ruin. 

ANDERSON: I love it. [laughter]

PHIPPS: The mortal ruin. 

ANDERSON: Oh, my --

LAKE: We digressed a little bit into different territory. But that’s fascinating to me --

ANDERSON: It is.

LAKE: -- How that was settled up there. 

PHIPPS: Oh, yeah.

LAKE: Very closed society actually.

PHIPPS: Yeah.

LAKE: Did you run cattle up there? 

PHIPPS: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we had cattle and sheep. Yeah, it makes you wonder what Lilly Langtree thought of those two idiots. 

LAKE: Yes, yes.

ANDERSON: Oh -- and looked at them right. [laughter] 

LAKE: Well, back to the Mansion. 

PHIPPS: Sure. 

ANDERSON: If you remember that? 

LAKE: We took off into space there unfortunately. I guess if we’re doing the interview we can do that.

PHIPPS: Yes! 

LAKE: What was the Mansion when you lived there? What was it like? What, you came back from Wyoming after the War [WWII]? 

PHIPPS: It hadn’t changed. My father made no changes in the Mansion. 

LAKE: Ah --

PHIPPS: He took it over from Kistler, and moved in some of his own furniture and inherited a lot of Kistler’s furniture. The big white table in the White Room --

LAKE: Oh?

PHIPPS: -- For example, and the, the clock on the wall.

LAKE: Yes. Oh, yes.

PHIPPS: And when Kistler sold it that clock was excepted from the contract.

LAKE: Oh?

PHIPPS: Kistler was supposed to come and get it. And then our lawyers when they saw it in my father’s estate, they said that clock is personal property. 

LAKE: All right --

PHIPPS: And had to be sold separate from the land. And I, I had to take them back and show them how there’s a fireplace behind that clock, and a four foot thick wall.

LAKE: Yes, yes.

PHIPPS: And I guess, you know, with explosives and a backhoe, you could get that clock, but --

LAKE: Well, yes. 

PHIPPS: But otherwise, it would sure be hard. 

LAKE: Yes, yes.

PHIPPS: And it was hard to explain to those lawyers that was not personal property.

LAKE: Yes.

ANDERSON: Well, we loved having it. They have it running again.

PHIPPS: Good! 

LAKE: Yeah. 

PHIPPS: That’s, that’s the first news. My father got it running once --

ANDERSON: Really?

PHIPPS: -- In my lifetime. That was --

ANDERSON: Well, it is running and it dongs on the, every 15 minutes and on the hour now. 

PHIPPS: Oh, oh, I know the dong. Yeah.

ANDERSON: Yeah, it’s wonderful. It’s --

PHIPPS: Yeah, he got it running for a couple of years and, and then it fell silent. 

LAKE: So when did you move back there? We’re ready. Oh, one of the memories that some of the others have about that land, about being at the Big House was that on the 4th of July, there was a big fireworks display there. Do you remember that?

PHIPPS: Oh, yeah. 

LAKE: Part of your history? 

PHIPPS: Yeah, I remember being to several of those events and you know, a couple of very dry years, it was canceled. 

LAKE: Oh --

PHIPPS: Because of the fire danger. 

ANDERSON: Sure.

LAKE: Sure. 

PHIPPS: And there was always, my Father was concerned about those fireworks getting out of hand. 

LAKE: Yeah. It really isn’t --

PHIPPS: Those Juniper trees on the entrance to the ranch, mansion are flammable so it would climb trees and --

LAKE: Oh, yeah. 

PHIPPS: It was a --

LAKE: To say nothing of the grasslands. Yeah. Yeah, what other celebrations did you have there? Anything else that steps out in your mind. I know that you didn’t have a great time there, but --

PHIPPS: You know there were a couple of weddings in the family.

LAKE: Oh, uh, huh.

PHIPPS: And then there were several Hunt breakfasts there. Well, after the Hunt, we’d all go there, and they were big catered events. 

LAKE: Oh, yes -- Uh, huh.

PHIPPS: And those were fun. 

ANDERSON: Uh, huh. 

LAKE: Anything stories about the barns around the Big House at all or --

PHIPPS: Well, I spent a lot of time in those barns. 

LAKE: Yes. 

PHIPPS: Some had been built at the turn of the century. Others had been built before Phillips got there, and then others had been built, the big white barn we called it, the milking barn had been built by Kistler when he wanted to turn the place into a milk farm. 

LAKE: Ah --

PHIPPS: And his answer to paying off his loans was to build that barn and get in dairy cows. But when he did, he found out that the Mountain Empire Dairyman’s Association in those days was a closed club. 

LAKE: Aha --

PHIPPS: And he had nowhere to go with his milk.

ANDERSON: Oh --

LAKE: Oh, dear. 

PHIPPS: And that’s what, that’s what got Kistler. That’s why he had to sell. 

ANDERSON: On the Depression came right in that area of time, didn’t it? 

PHIPPS: No, well, yes, when Kistler was there. Yeah. Sure was. 

ANDERSON: Yes.

PHIPPS: Didn’t help. 

ANDERSON: No, I’m sure it didn’t. 

LAKE: Yeah. 

ANDERSON: Do you remember the bowling alley? 

PHIPPS: Oh, yeah, we used to play there.

ANDERSON: Tell us about the bowling alley? 
 
PHIPPS: Well, we had to talk one of us siblings into setting pins.

LAKE: Oh, yes!

PHIPPS: And then the others would, and occasionally we’d get a visitor who wanted to learn how to set pins. [laughter]

ANDERSON: Oh, gee, we’ll show you!

PHIPPS: We made sure that they were well practiced by the time they left.

ANDERSON: I love it. 

PHIPPS: Yeah, oh, we, we played there a lot. 

LAKE: Yeah, right. I remember Joan saying that she remembers ice skating on the, that veranda out there? 

PHIPPS: Yeah. 

LAKE: Freezing it over in the wintertime and ice skating on it. 

PHIPPS: Yeah. 

ANDERSON: What do you remember about the Chum Howe house?

PHIPPS: Well, my sister, Mimi built it, and her husband was in the lumber business.

ANDERSON: Uh, huh.

PHIPPS: And so they used nothing but the finest lumber and inside, though, it’s bit Gothic.

ANDERSON: Oh, is it?

PHIPPS: It’s dark. It’s dark. They have small, narrow little windows.

ANDERSON: Uh, huh.

PHIPPS: But it was certainly beautifully built and that’s where, you know, all the Young family grew up and some of them were almost my age. 

LAKE: Yes.

ANDERSON: Oh, yes.

PHIPPS: So we, so a lot of us --

LAKE: It’s a beautiful. Great time. The --

ANDERSON: Did you bring the map that you have, that you wanted something --

LAKE;: We don’t need to do that on camera, do we? We’ll, we’ll get you to mark boundaries on the map or something. They want that. 

PHIPPS: O.k. 

LAKE: The windmills and the wells -- You had quite a few wells on the ranch, I imagine. 

PHIPPS: Right. And being, working with windmill crews is how I learned about windmills. 

LAKE: Yeah.

PHIPPS: And when a windmill fails, you can, you have two options. You can do what your instinct tells you to do. In that way, time will give you chance to see whether the well learns anything or you learn anything. [laughter]

ANDERSON: O.k. 

LAKE: So your instincts aren’t always true. 

PHIPPS: So the other way is to do it the way old windmill people do it, and change the way it is, stick it back in the ground, and jam it in the outer casing, examine the inner casing, and replace what -- Climb up on the tower and --

LAKE: Dangerous stuff.

PHIPPS: Yeah, dangerous stuff. 

ANDERSON: Didn’t you say the rattlesnakes liked the windmills?

LAKE: Oh, that was the rocks around the inner case, I know.

ANDERSON: The rocks --

PHIPPS: A rock enclosed windmill, the big one up on the hill --

LAKE: Yeah.

ANDERSON: Uh, huh.

PHIPPS: -- Was always full of rattlesnakes, and then there was a pump house further southeast where the big Douglas aquifer well is, Arapahoe Aquifer well --

ANDERSON: Oh! Uh, huh. 

PHIPPS: And that’s the one that supplied the ranch [unclear]. I think it’s still in functioning. It had a little house, and that was always full of rattlesnakes, and it would often have electrical disturbances --

LAKE: Oh, yes.

PHIPPS: Spiders would build webs and trip circuit breakers.

ANDERSON: Oh, gosh --

PHIPPS: And then you’d go in, you know, and that’s when it’s bright, middle of summer, and you walk into a dark little snack with no windows --

ANDERSON: But you can’t see!

PHIPPS: -- And everything rattling at you. [laughter]

LAKE: Go, go in shooting. 

PHIPPS: Oh, boy. It was a --

LAKE: Ever get bite by a snake? 

PHIPPS: No! 

LAKE: Yeah, good. 

PHIPPS: My mother liked snakes and taught me to be friends with snakes. 

LAKE: Oh, really?

PHIPPS: -- And especially bull snakes.

LAKE: Yes.

PHIPPS: -- And when I was riding, you know, as a kid, I’d pick them up and shove their head up my sleeve and let them wiggle. They’d go -- come out here [laughter], and then I’d shove them down here. The long ones, you know, I’d just ride home. 

ANDERSON: Oh, my stars!

PHIPPS: Tail sticking out and the head -- [laughter] 

LAKE: Strange --

PHIPPS: And then I’d [makes a twisting sound]. Ah -- I had one snake, a pet snake, and he didn’t like anybody else in the family. He’d hiss and try to bite them and snap at them and --

LAKE: A bull snake?

PHIPPS: Yeah, but I’d wrap him around my legs when I’d go to sleep at night, you know, and in the morning he’d still be there. 
 
ANDERSON: Yes --

PHIPPS: So I remember one day, I was sick, had the flu and some neighbor lady came and my Mother explained how I was sick. She had to come look and as soon as she did, I took the covers off [laughter] and heard her go screaming out of there. 

ANDERSON: Oh, dear. 

PHIPPS: Yeah, that was fun. 

LAKE: O.k. 

PHIPPS: Rattlesnakes, when I started managing the ranch, there was a time when I was wearing slippers like Mark [STEVENSON] is. When I’d get in the car, I’d slip them off and drive barefoot. And had to go out and check a well once in this car. Hot, hot, hot day, 100 degrees. Wind blowing, and I came to a gate. Opened the door of the car and jumped out, barefooted, stepped on a snake. 

LAKE: Oh, oh --

PHIPPS: On a rattlesnake --

ANDERSON: Really?

PHIPPS: Yeah, and do you know, we both knew how to fly. [laughter] That rattlesnake went shooting out that way, and I went shooting off this way. And the funny thing is, I had a gun. 

ANDERSON: Yes.

PHIPPS: -- Sitting on the, a pistol, you know, on the front seat of the car, and I grabbed that gun and never could find the snake. He’d flown away [laughter]. 

ANDERSON: Oh, funny. 

PHIPPS: Yeah. That’s how you learn about yourself.

ANDERSON: Yeah --

LAKE: Yeah, yeah. You sure do. The wife has lots of luncheons for us. What about hope (?) skins around? There’s something that’s called Mailing Douglas --

UNIDENTIFIED MAN'S VOICE: Johnson’s kennels --

LAKE: Yes. 

PHIPPS: There’s a, oh, it’s a 1,400 acre property. It’s located, oh, a quarter mile east of Highway 85, and so the only entry is through somebody else’s property. And, and it stretched up and around parts, two sides, of Daniels Park. 

LAKE: Wow. 

PHIPPS: And it went all the way to Daniels Park road --

LAKE: Oh, my gosh --

PHIPPS: -- On the north side, and of course, this was the most scenic property in the ranch. My father bought it shortly after the Second World War. 

LAKE: Ah --

PHIPPS: And he was proud to have that.

LAKE: Yes! 

ANDERSON: I would think so. 

PHIPPS: And that, that’s what gave us the boundary between --

LAKE: Yes, or I guess so. Right. What about the [unclear] place? These are just names, I don’t really know about. 

PHIPPS: Doesn’t ring any bell either. 

LAKE: Yeah. 

ANDERSON: Do you know an answer to that?

STEVENSON: The Grigs Homestead is toward the northeast portion of the, of the ranch property right now. The closest boundary is just to the west of Monarch over(?), going up the hills before you get to the top of the hill 

PHIPPS: Close to what?

ANDERSON: Monarch --

LAKE: Monarch -- West 

STEVENSON: Monarch. It’s just to the west of Monarch. 

ANDERSON: A round house.

STEVENSON: It’s south of the high school there and the junior high.

PHIPPS: Yeah?

STEVENSON: At Rock Canyon. 

PHIPPS: Right. 

STEVENSON: And the Grigs there -- We understand that he had a homestead there, but he was also a, a way station on the road up to Daniels Park. 

PHIPPS: Yeah, well, I didn’t know him, and we, we gave that property a different name. 

LAKE: It’ll bubble up --

PHIPPS: What? 

LAKE: That name will bubble up --

PHIPPS: Probably.

STEVENSON: Was that, was that what you referred to as the east ranch? Or was the east ranch more of the cheese ranch.

PHIPPS: No. The east ranch was the cheese ranch. 

STEVENSON: Yeah, and this is to the south of that.

PHIPPS: Exactly! 

STEVENSON: Yeah. 

PHIPPS: On the McArthur Ranch road. 

STEVENSON: Just south of McArthur Ranch road? Yes.

LAKE: Uh, huh. 

PHIPPS: Yeah, yeah, that had already been subdivided and there were little, you know, 35 acre ranchettes in there. 

LAKE: O.k. Well, the Flying B, that was down --

PHIPPS: That was Bowen’s --

LAKE: Yeah!

PHIPPS: -- Property.

LAKE: Yeah.

PHIPPS: And my Father owned that property, and he needed money and he sold it to a member of the Hunt who was going to build a house there. But then the War came along, and it didn’t work and Bowen took it over. 

LAKE: But how much land was with that? Do you remember?

PHIPPS: There originally was a quarter section, 160 acres. 

LAKE: Uh, huh.

PHIPPS: Here, again, they were very scenic. 

LAKE: Yeah.

PHIPPS: There were cottonwoods and the Highline Canal --

LAKE: Yes.

PHIPPS: -- Running through it, and Bowen built its runway.

LAKE: Yeah!

PHIPPS: And, yeah --

LAKE: Any other homesteads around there? Or --

PHIPPS: Well, there was one along the County Line Road, mid-way between Bowen and then my Father built, bought, and there was a separate house, garage and barn and ten acres.

LAKE: Ah --

PHIPPS: And I’ve forgotten what we called that. 

LAKE: Uh, huh.

PHIPPS: We rented it out. 

LAKE: Uh, huh. 

PHIPPS: And --

LAKE: The Chatfield land you had, that was your hayfields down there?

PHIPPS: Yeah. And it was our hay ground because here in Colorado, if you don’t have irrigation, or subirrigation, you’re not much of a hay producer. 

LAKE: Yeah. Was, was it sub-irrigated? 

PHIPPS: No. 

LAKE: No? O.k. 

PHIPPS: But it had water rights.

LAKE: Yeah, yeah. O.k.

PHIPPS: And here again at the turn of the century, three ditches there, and I’ve forgotten their names, but my Father went to Water Court and converted that into adjudicated well rights.

LAKE: Yeah. 

PHIPPS: And --

LAKE: They, a big thing, those water rights --

PHIPPS: Yeah. Yeah, I ended up doing a lot of the water stuff for my Father. 

LAKE: Yes. 

PHIPPS: And --

ANDERSON: What were your issues when this, the flood of ‘65 on the ranch? Did that affect you at all? Do you remember?

PHIPPS: Well, it, sure I remember. It came down and it took out the Highline Canal flume so it was two years before that canal worked again. 

ANDERSON: Two years?

PHIPPS: Maybe three. And it took out, you know, a lot of bridges going over to the Martin Plant. 

LAKE: Uh, huh.

PHIPPS: And washed out a lot of homes down there next to --

LAKE: Did you lose cattle in that? 

PHIPPS: Sometimes in the wintertime. 

LAKE: Uh, huh.

PHIPPS: We pastured alfalfa, yeah. Yeah, we had cattle there. 

LAKE: But did you lose any in the flood?

PHIPPS: No! 

LAKE: No? O.k. What do we know about the Plum Creek School?

PHIPPS: Nothing. 

LAKE: Yeah --

ANDERSON: That’s what we know, too.

LAKE: That’s what I know. 

ANDERSON: And where did the name Blakeland come from?

PHIPPS: No idea. 

LAKE: ‘Cause that was before Joe Blake was around?

ANDERSON: Oh, gosh, yes!

PHIPPS: Oh, yeah, of course. 

LAKE: Yeah.

PHIPPS: There was a very colorful guy named Roy Nelson. Had the coffee shop down on Blakeland, and we all called it Blakeland, and it’s been called that since the Depression.

ANDERSON: Yes.

PHIPPS: And it was an old name back by 1951. 

ANDERSON: Uh, huh. 

LAKE: So there was a coffee shop and then what’s the name of that where all the gambling was down in there?

STEVENSON: Neighbors --

LAKE: Yeah, Wolhurst (?), Yeah.

PHIPPS: No. 

LAKE: Did you get into that?

PHIPPS: No, no. 

LAKE: Hang around? 

PHIPPS: No. [laughter] Blakeland, you know, as I said, had a very colorful person named Roy Nelson that ran it.

LAKE: Uh, huh.

PHIPPS: And then he had an even more colorful daughter --

LAKE: Oh!

PHIPPS: And was a couple of years younger than me. 

LAKE: Ah!

PHIPPS: But nothing ever developed. [laughter] 

LAKE: But you explored?

PHIPPS: Yeah, she went on to become a country and western singer, and was supported by the International Harvester Company. 

ANDERSON: Ah, o.k.

PHIPPS: And her name was Trans-Star Rose. [laughter]

ANDERSON: That’s a colorful name. Oh --

LAKE: Good, old Rose, huh! I know we covered this before in the other interview, but the condemnation and, and of that property, and you covered it a little bit earlier. Anything to add about the Chatfield and all of that dam and all that? ‘Cause I know that was a big thing for you as a --

PHIPPS: Yeah, and, and it was a big thing for Denver. And the reality is Denver really shouldn’t want to see another flood of 1965. 

LAKE: No, right. 

PHIPPS: And as the Corps of Engineers said, that, that occurs only once every 100 years, but you know, which 100 years?

LAKE: Yes. Just one out of a 100.

PHIPPS: And yeah, so, but we were sad to lose that land. 

LAKE: Yes. 

PHIPPS: And we were really distressed. We had our, you know, in a condemnation, where you disagree on the initial offer, which our appraiser, Wady Bows (?) who was very conservative considered to be ten percent of the actual value of the land.

ANDERSON: Wow --

PHIPPS: And that’s not a realistic offer, and that’s what we told the court, and so they hired an elderly appraiser with emphysema, and it took the case, you know, two and a half years to reach Federal Court, and by that time, he was dead.

LAKE: Dear [laughter] --

PHIPPS: And so they told Federal Court they needed time to hire another appraiser and do another appraisal as their appraiser was dead. And the court had no other choice but to grant them that time, and so we went from, you know, two years of discovery and our appointed court date. Another two years further, and then for the second appraisal, that was another two years and then even when the number came down judiciously, judicially, we still couldn’t collect. And in those days apparently, it took an act of Congress. It was an amount over a million dollars which today is peanuts, but then, was not. 

LAKE: No! 

ANDERSON: Yes.

PHIPPS: And they say, “Well, we can’t make any, Treasury can’t any payments of more than a million dollars without an act of Congress.”

LAKE: Yes. 

PHIPPS: And so my Father went back with his lawyers and had to get the Colorado delegation, Congressional delegation, the senators and congressmen, and both parties supported him, and got the payments made. But it was not a pleasant thing -- 

LAKE: I know.

PHIPPS: And only then could we make the appeal to the IRS about the taxes.

LAKE: Right. 

PHIPPS: And it was difficult. 

LAKE: Yeah, it sure is. Very much. What was your brands for the cattle out on, on Highlands Ranch? 

PHIPPS: It was quarter-circle with a bell underneath. 

LAKE: Oh, the same brand used?

PHIPPS: That is the brand.

LAKE: Oh, o.k. 

PHIPPS: That’s the only brand we use. 

LAKE: Oh, o.k, o.k. How did you ever come up with that?

PHIPPS: Well, it was my Father’s brand.

LAKE: Yes. 

PHIPPS: And I talked to him about it once. I said, “You know, you were one of the founding directors of Mountain States Tell [telephone], and their logo is a circle with a bell in it,” ‘cause it was one of the Bell Companies. 

LAKE: Right.

PHIPPS: He said, “No connection.” He said, “There was nothing to do with that.” And I just independently came up with that long before -- [laughter]. Yes!

ANDERSON: Oh, my gosh. 

LAKE: There’s an untold story there somewhere. [laughter].

PHIPPS: So -- Yeah, well, now you know what I know. 

LAKE: Well, we’re perking right along here. You’re doing great. I think we covered all the Marvin Davis and the sale of the property and everything previously. We don’t need to go there. And we did the filming of Centennial. There wasn’t a lot -- Oh, where did the Longhorns come from in Centennial? In the film? 

PHIPPS: I have no idea. And they were not filmed. Those segments were not filmed at Highlands Ranch. 

LAKE: Right. Yes.

PHIPPS: And there is a guy, and I can’t remember his name in El Paso County that has a big herd of Longhorns.

LAKE: Ah, uh, huh.

PHIPPS: And so I would suspect that’s where the --

LAKE: Probably rented those? 

PHIPPS: Yeah.

LAKE: Yeah.

PHIPPS: He got a, why, it was probably his herd. You know, the problem with Longhorns is that they eat a lot of grass, and they don’t make much beef.

LAKE: Yeah. 

ANDERSON: Oh?

PHIPPS: And they were the only beef to start with back in the early days ‘cause they were the only things that could walk from south Texas to railheads in Kansas. 

LAKE: Yes, yes. That’s true.

PHIPPS: In those days -- 

LAKE: Yes.

ANDERSON: Did you have any involvement with the Littleton area? The people of Littleton at all?

PHIPPS: Not really. 

ANDERSON: Oh? 

PHIPPS: Not really. 

LAKE: ‘Cause we had some friends from Donna, what were her folks? Uses Smith now, but what are her --

ANDERSON: It’ll come to me, but --

LAKE: We’ve covered Cherokee [Ranch]..

ANDERSON: Yes, we have. 

LAKE: Trying to make sure I get all these things covered while we have the chance.

PHIPPS: Yeah, yes.

LAKE: Any other recollections you want to share on, on these things? The importance of your growing up here in this area? 

PHIPPS: Well, I only partially grew up in that area.

LAKE: Right.

PHIPPS: And I partially grew up in northern Wyoming.

LAKE: Yes. 

PHIPPS: And for some reason, the stories of Lilly Langtree were much more exciting than somebody in Littleton.

LAKE: Right. [laughter]

ANDERSON: I can understand that. Oh, dear. 

PHIPPS: Yeah, yeah, we’d come down every year to Stock Show and that was the big thing.

LAKE: Right.

ANDERSON: Right.

PHIPPS: And we’d see my Father then. Spend a few days with him, and, but we never really had time, you know, to get acquainted with the community. 

LAKE: Uh, huh. How about other people that stayed with your Father? He had all those bedrooms up there. It was a great place for visitors to stay over. Was set up real well. 

PHIPPS: Yeah, it was. Well, I had a guy call me up the other day saying he was reading the obituaries in the New York Times, and my name was prominently mentioned.

ANDERSON: In the Obit? 
 
PHIPPS: Yeah.

ANDERSON: Really? 

PHIPPS: And some oil exploration guy became very famous, had died and the one thing he talked about in his latter years, was when he was a kid going off to college, he wanted to play polo and Lawrence PHIPPS, Jr. had encouraged him to play polo and let him ride a lot of his horses, and he stayed in the big house in one of the bedrooms. I remember he stayed in that first bedroom.

ANDERSON: Yes?

PHIPPS: And for about six months, then he went off to Middlebury [College], I think, for college, and my father said, “Well, here, take three polo ponies with you.” Well, this was in the early 1950’s, and the railroads no longer handled horses so well and the airlines hadn’t learned to do it yet. And he ended up in Middlebury with three horses, and they had no stabling and you know, it’s in northern New England with severe winters and no equestrian programs what-so-ever. Here, this poor guy was with three finished polo ponies waiting for a game to occur. 

ANDERSON: Oh, my gosh!

LAKE: Croquet didn’t meet the needs.

PHIPPS: They made it through Middlebury and graduated, and then he went back to Oklahoma where he was from, and he still had his horses with him. And he started playing polo, and he played polo then until he was in his ‘70s. 

ANDERSON: Oh, my gosh.

PHIPPS: And he kept on telling that’s what got him started in polo. 

LAKE: Yes.

PHIPPS: And so I asked Marvin Beeman (?), I said, “Do you remember your Father giving away three of the best polo ponies,” and this was when Marvin was playing polo at CSU [Colorado State University], and I was a freshman at Princeton. And Marvin had no memory. What was there?

LAKE: But how did your name get attached to the obituarist? 

PHIPPS: Oh, just Lawrence PHIPPS. 

LAKE: Just as a, as a friend of his? 

PHIPPS: No, as somebody who gave him, Lawrence PHIPPS gave him three horses as a freshman at Middlebury.

LAKE: Oh, I see. That’s tough.

ANDERSON: Really? Yeah.

LAKE: And we didn’t cover the polo playing around here. How, did they play regularly at, on the ranch at all or -- 

PHIPPS: Oh, yeah, 

LAKE: You had polo fields there.

PHIPPS: Well, we had one polo field there.

LAKE: Yeah.. 

PHIPPS: And they have a police trainer at the entrance of the police training area, and there was a well there to irrigate it, and polo fields to be bearable have to be irrigated.

LAKE: Uh, huh. 

PHIPPS: And my Father developed it, largely for me, I think. 

LAKE: Oh. Uh, huh.

PHIPPS: And at first, it was a dirt field, and we played in the dirt, and then when they replanted it, and we didn’t play at all. And then the next year, it was ready, and so this is where the Plum Creek Polo Club had most of its games. 

LAKE: Oh, yeah. 

PHIPPS: And there were other fields around on Road 105, Dr. Carleigh Pollack (?) had an indoor arena where we played. And then further south on [Highway] 105 on the Dakan Mountain Road.

ANDERSON: Oh, yes. 

PHIPPS: Nelson Fair (?) built the first polo field south of his home, and then near Turtle Rock on the Dakan Mountain Road, and we played there. But still the principal location was Highlands Ranch, and the problem with polo is that it’s always accompanied by intense politics. 

LAKE: Ah -- 

PHIPPS: And the Hunt is, too. With the Hunt, when my Father was alive, he was the principal sponsor, and we had dues but they were more of a token contribution than a realistic cost of the expense and of course, when he died, that had to change.

LAKE: Yes.

PHIPPS: And Don O’Conner (?) and Art Cook and some of those helped make that change come. And now it’s a democratically operated Hunt with politics. 

LAKE: Ah -- [laughter]

ANDERSON: That’s very true I believe.

LAKE: Yes, we’re aware of the politics. 

PHIPPS: Yes. 

LAKE: Did you play polo in Princeton then?

PHIPPS: Well, not really. I played a little indoor polo and, but you’re really needing horses in Princeton. It was a wooden horse in a cage, and we could sit there and practice, and I did that a couple of times. And I happened to know the Director of Athletics at Princeton --

ANDERSON: Uh, huh.

PHIPPS: -- And he said, “If Yale and Cornell,” who both had active polo programs with horses, “if they’d invite us and let us play on their horses,” he’d give us jerseys. But boy, he, you know, we’d leave Friday night for a Saturday game and he wouldn’t give us the jerseys until 6 o’clock Friday night, and he wanted those jerseys back by 8 o’clock Monday morning. And we’d get on -- Yale would give us whatever horses they chose to give us --

ANDERSON: Uh, huh.

PHIPPS: And we hadn’t been riding or practicing any time together and they’d whoop us. And a month later, they’d do the same at Cornell. They’d whoop us so I sort of played polo at Princeton, but polo, you really should be riding several times a week just to be in shape to do it. 

LAKE: Yeah. 

ANDERSON: Are there any other memories that you have and shared. You want to tell us about? Or is that pretty much cover it?

LAKE: Well, you’ve had an active life in, in Denver at your apartments for many years.

PHIPPS: Yeah, and my house. Then I had a house. 

LAKE: Then you had a house.

PHIPPS: Yeah. 

LAKE: Where would that have been? 

PHIPPS: It was on 13th and Columbine in Capitol Hill. 

LAKE: Oh, o.k. 

PHIPPS: And that’s where I started entertaining once a week.

LAKE: Ohhh! 

ANDERSON: Oh, my gosh, Lawrence. You went wild -- After we met and enjoy it.

PHIPPS: Yeah, it was much like the things we do today, except I wasn’t married. 

ANDERSON: Yes. 

PHIPPS: That did make a difference. 

LAKE: Was there, were there any outstanding memories that you have of that time? Tell us who was there.

PHIPPS: Well, yeah, you know, I had trouble balancing the parties. I, I liked to have a different, a desperate crowd in case you had memories.

LAKE: We have. 

PHIPPS: And, but I couldn’t help it. One week I had nothing but lawyers. And the next week there would be nothing but doctors, and then the next week there nothing but people from Iran or Iraq and I had this, I had this associate from Baghdad, and he played Udud (?), and he was a great musician, and he used to come every week, and he had a friend that was a drummer who had located in Denver, and another friend that had been in the first violin section of the Cleveland orchestra and went through a messy divorce and came to Denver and went through medical school. He was a violinist, a great musician. 

LAKE: Wow --

PHIPPS: He was a devout Jew. The drummer was a devout Christian, and --

LAKE: The violinist?

PHIPPS: -- And he was a devout Muslim, and they were all playing together, and, and belly dancers would vie for each other, with each other for their time, you know, and they used my bedroom to change in and then they’d come down and, and they didn’t care whether it was doctors, lawyers or Iranians there. That’s what they did every weekend, and it was fun.

LAKE: Yeah (laughter).

PHIPPS: Then often we’d have a lot of flamenco people there.

LAKE: Yeah, oh, yeah -- Rene. 

PHIPPS: And it -- Yeah.

LAKE: Rene --

PHIPPS: And then we had a, some country and western folk musician friends, too, and they’d come a lot to those parties. But one memorable occasion was one, one of those Tuesday nights suddenly, it was during the Iranian-Iraq war when Iran was sending in these battalions of young fanatics. The charge would just disappear against machine guns. 

LAKE: Oh, wow! 

PHIPPS: And Saddam Hussein with his tanks and machine guns and poison gas that, it was a great, bitterly fought war. So one night suddenly the whole group was split between the Iranians and the Iraqis that were there. 

LAKE: Oh, yes.

PHIPPS: And my friend, Bill Berger (?), went to a believer, arguing with each other. He says, “You guys ought to calm down and be glad that you’re here in Denver, eating and drinking.” 

LAKE: Yeah, yeah --

PHIPPS: And they says, “You know, you’re right.” 

ANDERSON: Yeah, what a concept! 

PHIPPS: And what a contest.

LAKE: Yeah --

ANDERSON: Amanda (?) asked we should check with you on the death of your father, which we talked about briefly. He did die in the mansion? 

PHIPPS: Yeah. 

ANDERSON: And then how was Marvin Davis the one that ended up with the, the mansion directly? Do you remember how that all that came about? 

PHIPPS: Yeah, yeah. I ended up having lunch with, you know, homebuilders, and they, they say that’s a real estate deal, we want to a buy a section of land, and I said, “Well, you can’t do that because the whole thing is for sale.” And I said, “But you know, most homebuilders, they buy with a little down and yearly payments as they make money, and you can’t do that in an estate. It has to be all cash.” And so you got to bring in the heavy weights to be able to do it so they brought in Marvin Davis. 

ANDERSON: Oh! O.k. 

PHIPPS: That’s his connection, and he took to it personally. He, he came out with his lawyers one day, wanted to see me, and have a tour, look at the cows, and he said, “Well, how do you, how do you look at the cows?” And I said, “Oh, I just get out of the car and call them,” you know, “to come.” And so all the cows came and clustered around, and I said, “So, so you can see them.” And then he turned to his lawyer, and said, “ Oh, Jesus, I got an appointment in Denver. Honk your horn, and let’s get out through these cows.” And I said, “Oh, don’t do that, Marvin. You know, if you honk your horn, those cows will follow you all the way back to your office.” [Laughter]. And he says, “You know, I just learned something.” 

LAKE: Yes. 

ANDERSON: Oh, how funny --

LAKE: So you got along well with him?

PHIPPS: Yeah. 

LAKE: Yeah. 

ANDERSON: You didn’t really know him any more than that?

PHIPPS: Well, yeah. 

ANDERSON: A little bit --

PHIPPS: I did know him. He was a fixture on 17th Street in Denver. At noontime, he, he just loved to, what he called the schmutz --

LAKE: Yeah!

PHIPPS: You know, and he’d sit there and he’d make deals on the corner, right there at lunchtime. That, that was lunch for him, and --

ANDERSON: Do you have any kind of pictures of Marvin Davis with you or -- ?

PHIPPS: No. I don’t have any pictures of him. I’ve seen pictures of him in the Denver Post, and even the Wall Street Journal, but I don’t have any pictures of him. 

LAKE: Well, I’m sure that lots of him on his website. 

PHIPPS: Yeah, yeah. 

ANDERSON: Well, gosh, controversy with neighbors on the sale of the mansion? Did you have any problems with neighbors? Don’t have any? 

PHIPPS: Oh, you know, we were under pressure to make payments to the IRS that far exceeded any money I got from that section in Arapahoe County.

ANDERSON: Uh, huh. 

PHIPPS: And it actually was, you know, well, they were huge payments. I don’t remember what it was, but millions of dollars.

ANDERSON: Yeah. 

PHIPPS: And I was sure glad to suddenly get liquid, and get that thing done. They, you know, we signed the deeds, and they gave the checks to our lawyers, accountants, and it was in the Mile High building, mile high. And our lawyer put the checks in his pocket, and he said, “Do you want an armed guard going back to your bank?” And I said, “No, I don’t need an armed guard.” [laughter] You want an armoured car? And he said, “No,” and I just walked down there. Probably with Gerald and Lawrence PHIPPS --

ANDERSON: Oh, my gosh!

PHIPPS: “And we’ll deposit the checks and then we’ll have lunch.” 

LAKE: Yes.

PHIPPS: And, and it was a celebratory luncheon. It was just a fast sandwich, and that was it. 

ANDERSON: Oh, my gosh.

PHIPPS: But it was a celebratory --

ANDERSON: Well, sure. Terrific --

LAKE: Yes. The bankers were glad to see you.

PHIPPS: Oh, boy. [laughter]

ANDERSON: You know, Lawrence, we really thank you for your time and --

PHIPPS: Well, this has been fun. 

ANDERSON: -- attention. Well, we’ve loved it. My goodness -- It’s wonderful. Thank you. 

PHIPPS: Yes.

LAKE: I was going to bring up your speaking luncheon, but I don’t think that has anything to do with Highlands Ranch?

PHIPPS: No. [laughter] And it doesn’t help. And I hated him. He was a biter and a kicker.

ANDERSON: Oh! 

PHIPPS: Mean, little thing. And when I was five, he gave me one of his old polo mares, and I loved her, and she loved me, and, and that’s, that’s what started me riding. 

LAKE: Yeah.

ANDERSON: Yeah, I’ll bet --

STEVENSON: We didn’t talk much about you becoming the Master of the Hunt Club? We see you have a Hunt Club shirt on today? 

PHIPPS: Yes.

STEVENSON: How did that come about? And how long were you a Master? 

LAKE: Still are.

PHIPPS: I still am. And it happened in 1967, and my father decided that I should become a joint Master --

STEVENSON: O.k.

PHIPPS: -- With him. 

ANDERSON: Yeah, early adoption. [unclear] Well, they sure come up with the questions?

NANCY LINSENBIGLER:. Yeah, we still have more.

[During the next segment, there are several people speaking the background.]

ANDERSON: Well, that was --

LINSENBIGLER: Oh, she’s a patron.

ANDERSON: One of his? 

LINSENBIGLER: Yeah, sure.

ANDERSON: Well, Lawrence, will you sign this? 

STEVENSON: Your Dad served in World War II? 

PHIPPS: He also served in World War I. 

STEVENSON: On his will -- What did he do in World War II?

ANDERSON: I did that all morning. 

PHIPPS: He was assigned to an Army base in Helena, Montana, and it was trying to train shed dogs for arctic transport.

STEVENSON: Uh, huh. 

PHIPPS: That’s what he did there. 

STEVENSON: I understand that the mansion property pretty much shut down for a good portion of World War II? Is that correct?

ANDERSON: Wow --

PHIPPS: Yeah! Yeah, nothing happened.

STEVENSON: The ranch hands were dispersed or what happened there? Do you know? 

PHIPPS: Oh, no, the cattle and everything, that operation continued. 

STEVENSON: Yeah?

PHIPPS: It’s just that there was nothing going on in the Mansion, in the big house. 

STEVENSON: Someone told me that the Mansion had had some water damage that you tried to winterize the Mansion as best you can, but there was some frozen pipes one bad winter?

ANDERSON: We enjoyed sitting and talking about that --

PHIPPS: Yeah.

STEVENSON: With the stalagmites?

PHIPPS: This was in the 50’s.

STEVENSON: That was in the 50’s? 

PHIPPS: Yeah.

STEVENSON: I heard it was during World War II? 

PHIPPS: Well, that could happen, too.

STEVENSON: That could happen then, too? 

PHIPPS: Probably did. 

LAKE: My work? 

LINSENBIGLER: My work. Even if you pay me --

ANDERSON: Did you ever hear of a David Gregory?

PHIPPS: What? 

ANDERSON: Way back, a David Gregory? 

STEVENSON: Gregory gulch? Oh, absolutely. 

LINSENBIGLER: Nearby? Nearby?

PHIPPS: Boy, I’ve heard that name, but I can’t place it. 

STEVENSON: He’s one of the original homesteaders out in that area. Gregory Gulch.

LINSENBIGLER: And you heard he was a homesteader on that property? 

ANDERSON: Yeah, at one time. Is that familiar? It’s an interesting that they said it was. [unclear] in the brochures --

LINSENBIGLER: I wanted to follow up a little bit more about this, about the cheese ranch? You called it the East Ranch? Did you, did you have anything to do with it? Do you remember what it looked like? Maybe, when it was purchased by your father in the 40’s? 

PHIPPS: Yeah, we had somebody living there, and you know, we had a fairly fancy house and yard, and we ran cattle there in the summer and --

STEVENSON: Well water there --

PHIPPS: What?

STEVENSON: There’s water there!

PHIPPS: Well --

STEVENSON: Some years.

LINSENBIGLER: Not quite as big as Dry Creek --

PHIPPS: See, those water rights came from that reservoir that, that was further south, that washed out in 1934. There was no water there and hadn’t been water.

LINSENBIGLER: Is that the reservoir that was near Castlewood and Parker? 
That reservoir? 

PHIPPS: No! 

LINSENBIGLER: Are you sure? 

ANDERSON: They’re trying to fix broken windows around the well --

LINSENBIGLER: No, it can’t be -- There was no damage.

STEVENSON: In any case, that’s too far.

PHIPPS: There’s one on the maps that’s also breached in the same flood and it, it provided water for the cheese ranch.

LINSENBIGLER: No, no, I don’t want it, I don’t want it.

ANDERSON: No, no, I’m good. Yeah.

STEVENSON: Cherry Creek dam? 

ANDERSON: Yeah, yeah.

STEVENSON: O.k. 

LAKE: So we have a new director. He’s coming -- He’s speaking.

STEVENSON: So it didn’t flood. It held. 

LINSENBIGLER: Yeah, I know. I’m thinking --

STEVENSON: That’s part of Cherry Creek.

LINSENBIGLER: O.k. 

LAKE: Don’t say anything. 

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN’S VOICE: There’s a picture. I’m on the old map. 

LINSENBIGLER: So are, so, so when you guys acquired it then, the house was still there, and then you rented it out, you said, now, but there were people that were still living there when you acquired it? 

PHIPPS: Bud and Miriam Morgan lived there when we acquired it. 

LINSENBIGLER: They lived in the cheese ranch house? 

PHIPPS: Well, that’s where, before then, they’d been down at in Plum Creek, and my father moved them to the cheese ranch. They lived there, and then after, you know, in the late 50’s, they moved up to headquarters and some other hand moved into the cheese ranch. 

LINSENBIGLER: All Right. Well, I’m going to get back to my house and --

STEVENSON: No, they’re building a garden right now to Marianne Saunders (?) at the Mansion property.

PHIPPS: Well, good. She deserves that. 

STEVENSON: It should be done next spring here.

PHIPPS: Good! 

STEVENSON: Plant the flowers, but they’ve done the construction portion already. It’s a metro district project. 

PHIPPS: That’s a wonderful idea.

STEVENSON: It’s on the Mansion property right next door to the house there.

PHIPPS: Good! 

STEVENSON: But on the other side, that’s on the Mansion side of the fence. 

PHIPPS: Good. 

LAKE: Wonderful time. Very smooth, very --

LINSENBIGLER: Now back to the cheese ranch, we’re getting ready to do a program on the cheese ranch in our, in about six weeks here, so I’m trying to get as much info as I can on it. And I hadn’t heard that, that Marianne, that Bud and Miriam had been there?

PHIPPS: Yeah.

LINSENBIGLER: So what was the condition of the rest of the buildings? So the house was obviously liveable? We’ve seen pictures, but it looks like the barns are just, you know --

PHIPPS: It was falling down. 

LINSENBIGLER: O.k. So it was then, too.

PHIPPS: It was a big dairy barn and, but it was falling down.

LINSENBIGLER: O.k., but the house was still in good condition? 

PHIPPS: Oh, yeah. 

LINSENBIGLER: In decent condition? Did, do you know of, of any, what we just found some wild hops growing in that area? And we’re wondering if there could have been from the time when Elsie (?) was there ‘cause there’s an old time picture of Elsie holding a big mug of like German dark, German beer? Do you have any idea --

PHIPPS: This is the first I’ve heard of her?

LINSENBIGLER: O.k. Don’t have any idea about any of the plantings and that wasn’t then in effect when, when you guys took it over? Any of the gardens or anything? 

PHIPPS: Boy, I just, you know, I just don’t believe that. 

LINSENBIGLER: You don’t, you don’t think it could have been from that time then? 

PHIPPS: No, I don’t believe it.

LINSENBIGLER: O.k.

PHIPPS: Hops needs irrigation. They need water to grow. 

LINSENBIGLER: Uh,huh.

PHIPPS: And you know, there was no irrigation. It was dry. 

LINSENBIGLER: o.k. Well, yeah. 

PHIPPS: And there were all these alfalfa fields that had been rich before that dam washed away --

LINSENBIGLER: Uh, huh.

PHIPPS: -- In 1934. My father bought the place in 1942 --

LINSENBIGLER: Uh, huh.

PHIPPS: -- Under an alias, and moved Bud and Miriam into it. 

LINSENBIGLER: Uh, huh.

PHIPPS: And then after the war, he acknowledged that it was him that owned it. 

LINSENBIGLER: So how much, you know how much acreage it was ‘cause we had heard that at one point, that it 160 acres. Does that sound about right when it would have been purchased or bigger or -- ?

PHIPPS: It was at least 1,000 acres and actually now that I think about it, the east ranch was separate from the cheese ranch. 

LINSENBIGLER: O.k.

PHIPPS: There was just a fence between them and that was the land further east.

LINSENBIGLER: O.k. Yeah, it wasn’t owned by you yet?

PHIPPS: Yes, it was.

LINSENBIGLER Oh, that was too.

PHIPPS: Yeah. 

LINSENBIGLER: O.k. Yeah, I was looking at an old time map, and it had the picture of the cheese ranch. It wasn’t called the cheese ranch. It was just called the Dry Creek and up above and on the side on east, it had Lawrence PHIPPS’ name written on it. O.k.? 

PHIPPS: Yeah.

LINSENBIGLER: O.k. Right. Any other memories of the cheese ranch, the buildings, anything from the time you guys took it over until you sold it? ‘Cause we know that --

PHIPPS: Yeah, I just remember at least some of the branding several hundred calves there. 

LINSENBIGLER: Really? O.k.

PHIPPS: And see we’d brand at headquarters that herd and it has a couple hundred calves and the next day, we’d go to the cheese ranch that had a set of corrals and --

LINSENBIGLER: O.k. 

PHIPPS: And then there was another set of corrals somewhere else we’d go to.

LINSENBIGLER: On the property?

PHIPPS: Yeah. 

LINSENBIGLER: O.k. 

PHIPPS: Yeah.

LINSENBIGLER: Good. Well, that’s good information that I hadn’t had before so I’m thrilled about that. A couple of other questions I was trying to write them down. Oh, I guess, I had questions and I think LAKE talked about them with you. Have you any old pictures of now, of any, from, from that time period now? No? O.k.

ANDERSON: We don’t believe it. I don’t believe that ‘cause [unclear] -- 

LINSENBIGLER: Fine. Anything else we can go through? Oh! We touched a little bit on the Chatfield area, and when we were meeting with Suzanne on it, she was, she had a lot of memories of the school that was there. Called Plum Creek School, and I think I mentioned that to you. She said that was built by your father’s work forces? For the kids --

PHIPPS: No. No.

LINSENBIGLER: No, that’s not true? 

PHIPPS: My father never built a school. 

LINSENBIGLER: O.k.

STEVENSON: But they went to school to the one in Parker School.

LINSENBIGLER; O.k. Yeah. She went there?

STEVENSON; She went to school there.

LINSENBIGLER: She went to school there. She remembers --

STEVENSON: People there had to pick her up, she had a handicapped girl [unclear]Pick her up in Blakeland [unclear]-- what’s now Chatfield.

LINSENBIGLER: Yeah, the underwater works.

STEVENSON: The story we heard was a one room schoolhouse and a one hole outhouse.

LAKE [laughs]: That had two holes. 

LINSENBIGLER: Yeah. All right. Did you ever find any artifacts, Indian artifacts or fossils or anything like that on the property? Did you find any where they were apparently digging Chatfield, they found that, that old, that old skull?

PHIPPS: Right. 

LINSENBIGLER: Did you guys find anything exciting like that? 

PHIPPS: No. 

LINSENBIGLER: Nothing. I was wondering you had some of that, huh? O.k. 

PHIPPS: I, you know --

STEVENSON: Final question from me. Did you ever know a Julia (?) Kistler? Frank’s oldest daughter? 

PHIPPS: No. 

STEVENSON: You would have been young at the time. You would have been six, eight year old, and you wouldn’t have had many years to interact. She would have been a little bit older than you. Ever know her? O.k.

LINSENBIGLER: Well, and I have one final question. They brought it, they brought it up at our program on Wednesday about the ghost. Art, you have ever had kind of unusual experiences or anything there? 

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN’S VOICE: Everybody’s wants to know!

ANDERSON: Right!

PHIPPS: No

LINSENBIGLER: No? I mean, every time we run it, in the Big House, our docent tour, people bring it up. We don’t talk about it, but they are asking about it..

LAKE: All of a sudden, it was Julia here 

JULIA: You are right. 

LAKE: My sister’s daughter. 

JULIA: You are right. 

LAKE: That’s the ghost. 

PHIPPS: Are you stupid? 

LINSENBIGLER: O.k. That’s --

LAKE: That was in Joan’s bedroom. 

PHIPPS: People have a lot of colorful imagination.

LAKE: Yes, they do! 

LINSENBIGLER: And now they’re actually calling it lore, mansion lore, which I think is a good, a good, a good talk, a title. I think so, yes. All right. Thank you very much. I do appreciate it.

ANDERSON: Oh, Lawrence, you’re wonderful! 

LINSENBIGLER: We really appreciate it. 

Tape stopped at 1:27:57